Sandra Tung | Be a Hot Date for Your Dog

I just wanted to first tell you, I'm just really excited to have you on the podcast, because everything you say is just gold. So I'm thinking what we need to do is put that Wharton MBA to use, and we can make some great scent work t-shirts together and sell them. What do you think?

I cannot believe you know that little tidbit about me.

Of course I do. I do my research. I do my homework. Yeah, you had quite a career before you kind of dedicated yourself to scent work full time. But that's not what we're here to talk about. I should probably say this — this is Alert Scent Work. My name's Scot. I'm Murphy and Kiva's dad. And with me is Sandra Tung, competitor, trainer, and judge, mother to Chiron and Cajun. Is that the pronunciation correct?

You are really good. Yeah. Most people have trouble pronouncing Chiron's name.

Chiron. And are you mom to other dogs too, that I don't know about?

Yes. I also have an older dog, a Shiba Inu, named Tayo.

Was that your first scent work dog?

No.

Is that first scent work dog no longer with us, I'd imagine?

Yeah, they both passed. Well, one passed this year and the other passed in 2020. So I started with Shiba Inu.

I know that, and I want to talk to you about that, because not a lot of people use those dogs in scent work. They're really great little dogs, and they're cute to boot.

Yes, you're right. All right, so I want to know, how did you get involved in scent work? I know you've been around for a while. You were one of the first AKC judges to judge scent work back in 2017. You were obviously involved in the sport before that. So let's talk about that origin. What is Sandra's origin story?

Well, you know, everybody started somewhere. I never had a dog in my life until 2010. I got my first Shiba Inu. She was my first dog. She was not a puppy — she was a retired breeding dog from a show breeder. And I wasn't intending on doing any sports or anything of that nature at all, but a doggy friend convinced me to take rally obedience classes with her, and that's how I started doing dog sports. I think back in 2011, when nosework — which is what the original sport was — was starting around that time, somebody mentioned a local trainer is starting nosework classes and asked if I would be interested. And I was hooked on everything dog related, so I signed up. By the time AKC rolled around in 2017, I'd been competing in NACSW for over six or seven years.

Got it.

Yep.

Yeah. So you were doing all sorts of dog sports, so you're like, all right, let's just do one more. Let's do some nosework. And I know that you still compete at a very high level in all those other sports, but what was it about nosework that kept you doing that as well? Or is it just another fun thing to do with your dog? Or is there something special about nosework to you?

Well, initially it's just a sidekick. You know, agility is the main thing that I do with my dogs, and scent work, nosework — it sounds interesting, it's new, and it involves food. And dogs like food. So yeah, that's how I got started.

And as I progressed from a newbie in scent work to a more experienced handler, to eventually teaching and judging, I really appreciate this sport. It's very different from all the other sports I was involved in, or am still currently involved in, where the dogs take the driver's seat for the most part. As a handler I have my input, but I always take into consideration my dog's choices and decisions because really, they are the experts. But at the same time, I realized that there are certain things as a handler that I am responsible for, so I shouldn't be just following my dog without thinking about my responsibility. So it's a balanced approach where the dog leads the search. But as a handler, I need to make sure we cover the area and manage time. No matter how well you train your dog, they would never understand the concept of time management or covering the area.

You know, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Everybody describes scent work teams as a team, and it is a team. But I almost feel like what you're saying — the dog takes the lead and we're really just support staff. Like we're even less than a team. We're just there to be like, all right, hey, by the way, I know that you're really busy over there, but why don't you come over here and check when you're done checking over there? Because we should check over here. We're like a personal assistant almost. Do you think that's taking it too far?

Well, people use different analogies to describe that relationship. I think of it more like my dogs are the subject matter expert, and as a team together, I'm more like the supervisor or manager.

Okay.

I have certain responsibilities to make sure we do the project on time, on budget. But how to actually do the job — most of it is relying on my dog. I train my dog to the best of my ability so they know their task. And if I do ask them to do something, they should humor me and take my suggestion seriously. But if there's nothing there — don't tell me there's something there just because I ask.

Right. I'm hearing that Wharton MBA come back again. A great manager empowers their team, helps train their team, makes sure their team is motivated, and then takes care of those other details so the team can do their best.

And sometimes I make wrong choices as the manager or as the handler, and it's a conscious decision and risk that I know I'll have to take as part of the team.

Yep, I love it. I like your analogy a lot. So you're an AKC scent work expert judge — a term that I've only heard recently and a term that's only used for a few judges. And you're one of those. What does that mean exactly?

AKC never really clarified what it means.

It looks good on a CV, right? On your resume.

And I don't really know if it has any significance nowadays. I think early on, when AKC just started its scent work program, they cast a wide net to take judges with somewhat relevant experience. Some are more experienced in scenting sports than others. Expert judges were probably handpicked by early AKC personnel in charge of the direction of the program — people they had known who were in the sport for quite a while. And early on the expert judges were needed to provide some mentorship or evaluation. I don't remember the details, but nowadays AKC has lifted that limitation of who can mentor new judges.

Yeah, but I think it still sounds great. So you should keep that on your resume for sure.

I do.

Good, good, good. So I want to talk about some of your mantras. One of the motivational poster sayings that really stuck with me — that I heard you say — was "respect your dog's choices." Or maybe it's "respect your dog's decision." What is the exact verbiage?

You know, when you mentioned that I was like, really? I say that?

No, you did. And you kind of alluded to it already in this conversation. That one really resonated with me because, like you said, the dog is the subject matter expert. So if your dog chooses to go somewhere and hunt, you have to respect that and allow them to do that, not try to override — which I think sometimes as handlers we do, especially in containers or buried. Or even when we have our plan for our interior or exterior searches, we have our plan and the dog wants to go left and we want them to go right. But you have to respect that dog's choice. Am I getting how you believe that correct? Is there some more nuance you'd like to add?

What you are describing is what I believe in general, but I don't believe I say that in exactly those words. There are many things I like to say to students or anyone that is willing to listen.

So I want to jump in — what are a couple of the things that if I asked your students, what does Sandra say all the time in class? What would they say? Give me two or three examples.

They would say — be a hot date to your dog.

Tell me what that means. I love it.

Initially I tell people — how I came about with this phrase — I see a lot of students or clients or even competitors that I have the honor to judge, who are quite stingy when they reward their dog. So initially I said, don't be a cheap date. And everybody kind of laughed when I said that. And as time went on, I said, let's be a little bit more aspirational rather than just aim for the low bar of not being a cheap date. Why don't you aspire to be a hot date? Whenever you go out and ask your dog for a date — to play the sniffing game — they should be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, sign me up, I'm available. Versus, let me check my calendar.

I love it. Yeah.

I say that to students and clients a lot. In competition, in trials, you might be under pressure, you might be nervous, you might not pay as generously. But especially in training, you really should make it a big deal for your dog. And it's not just the food — it's how happy you are, how proud you are of them. It should be a whole package that the dog feels like it's really making you happy and you are providing them something that they love. Most dogs love food, but not every dog does. You have to consider what is rewarding for your dog and reward them accordingly. In scent work, most people focus too much on imprinting the dog early on. In all my years doing scenting sports, I've never encountered anything where the challenge is the dog doesn't recognize the target odor. The problem is usually the dog doesn't prioritize target odors in all environments. Being a hot date — showing the dog that you appreciate their work and effort — really gets that idea through their head, versus worrying about whether your dog knows odor. Every scent work dog I've ever judged or seen knows birch, anise, and clove. It's just what they consider to be rewardable. Is that source? Is that a specific alert? Is the dog actively hunting, or only reacting when odor is readily present in their proximity?

Got it. Give me one more saying that your students would say Sandra says all the time. I love them, I want more.

Well, I say a lot of things and I don't always remember what I said. But another thing I tell people is, as they progress in their learning, they need to be not just a passive handler — they need to be taking a more active role as the dog gets better.

Right.

The difference between a good team and a top team is really the handler. You can have really well trained dogs, but handled by different handlers with different skills, you see big differences between those teams. And being a good handler doesn't mean you are always trying to micromanage everything. You need to understand as part of the team what your strengths are. Yes, you want to cover the search area, but sometimes you don't have the time. You have to trust that your dog is trained well enough that the dog will tell you where the productive areas are. When the dog is in a productive area, give them time to solve the puzzle versus overriding them and worrying too much about covering the area and just dragging them away. If the dog tells you there's something in the area, give them time to investigate. And at some point, if the dog is not making progress, yes, as the manager you should move the dog on in the interest of time — but only after your dog has had a chance to work that area.

Yeah, that could be really easy to do — to move out a little quickly as opposed to allowing your dog the chance to solve the puzzle. So finding that balance is one of the skills that a good handler has versus a newer handler.

Because if you are only thinking about covering an area, and you're in an unproductive area, no matter how hard you work — both you and your dog — you're not going to find something out of nothing. So covering the area is an important strategy, but it's really about covering productive area. And the challenge is how do you know which area is productive? When it comes to covering productive area, you're really relying on your dog — the subject matter expert — to lead you to the promised land.

When you are judging and watching a team, what do you notice that makes you go — that's a good team — even if they don't Q in that round?

First I look at how the game is played between the human and the dog. Some teams — the handler is the one leading the search, constantly nagging, find it, find it, search, search. Other teams — the dog knows its job and the handler is supportive, paying attention, honoring the dog. It doesn't matter whether the dog is fast or slow or what kind of style they have. Do they have an understanding of who is in charge of what, and how can they play this game as a team? The human is really more than just a treat dispenser. Many people jokingly say they are just a treat dispenser — they are really setting the bar low and not thinking about how much they influence the outcome of a search. It's not about whether the dog has the skill to solve certain types of puzzles. Sometimes whether a team is successful or not is based on whether the handler keeps the dog in an unproductive area for too long, or doesn't give the dog time in a productive area.

Many of my guests have said reading your dog is so critical. And I'm hearing two aspects of reading your dog — is your dog in a productive area, or is your dog not in a productive area? That would be almost in the top five of the jobs that manager needs to do.

Exactly.

I think it was "honor your dog's decision." I think that's what you said. It wasn't "respect" — when you said the word "honor" just now, that rang the bell. Honor your dog's choices, or honor your dog's decisions. So thank you for getting me back to that saying that you didn't know you said but resonated so much with me.

For most of my students, they know I said the hot date, don't be a cheap date, and they all get a laugh out of it. I know one local competitor — a student — she was at a sniff and go event and the volunteer judge was giving her some feedback after their search. The volunteer judge asked her, who is your instructor? And the student said, oh, Sandra. And immediately the volunteer judge, who was also a student, said, Sandra must have told you to be a hot date. Why are you not paying your dog enough? I thought that was really funny.

Your reputation has preceded you. People know what your students should be doing. That's funny. Your dogs from the videos I've watched are really known for having drive and confidence. And I think you're known among competitors for building that. How do you develop drive and confidence in your scent work dogs — especially drive? Does that come back to the hot date again, or is there more?

I don't know. When I first started, I started with an off breed — Shiba Inu. Knowing what I know now, I feel really bad about how I trained and handled them. My Shibas like to eat, but they don't love to eat. I used to be the crazy woman who brought a bunch of different high value treats — people thought I was bringing a whole buffet — trying to see which was that one magic treat that would get my dog on fire. With a Shiba, I never accomplished that. I think a lot of people early on want to replicate the desire you might see in a trial, at the expense of building the dog's confidence and enjoyment of the game. Many clients ask me what they can do as homework when they're not in class. For most new and inexperienced teams, I tell them the most important thing is set simple hides, pay really generously, short sessions — short and sweet. Pay a dog a CEO salary for flipping burgers, and do it in all kinds of places. That will carry you much further down your scenting career than constantly working on high, suspended, elevated hides. Not that you don't need to work on those skills — you do. But most dogs struggle when they are in a novel environment where there are other competing things that either distract them or worry them.

I'm curious — one of the things that you seem to do really well, that I struggle with and I think a lot of handlers struggle with, is remembering where we found our hides. In some searches I see that Chiron found like eighteen hides — that's a bit of an exaggeration — but how do you keep track at the higher levels where there are a lot of hides? What's your secret?

Practice makes perfect. You are never perfect, but you should practice all the time. Most people only practice when they run their own dogs. I tell my clients it's very important to practice especially when you are not running your dogs. If you are volunteering, spectating, or just in class watching a classmate run — that's a great opportunity to practice your memory. Remember how many hides have been found, where they were found, what the sequence was. The more you practice, the better you will have a system for, in that moment of finding a hide, quickly attaching one or two descriptors that you can retrieve from your memory bank later. If you don't practice and you only do it when you run your dog, you have so many things on your mind — you're watching your dog's change of behavior, managing time, trying to cover the area, trying to decipher if that's a true change of behavior — all of that makes it harder to focus on memorization.

So what I'm hearing is that when you find a hide, you might say in your mind — first table, near threshold, left corner. You kind of note where it was. Do you do that in your mind, or out loud?

I usually do it in my mind. But you have to start somewhere and it takes practice. Everybody has a different memory system. A lot of people start with an object — you find a hide on a chair, you say "chair." And then if you find another one on a chair, you're like — chair, right? Exactly the same with a ground hide or a crack hide. I've done exercises in class where there are five, six, seven crack hides in a big area. People start with "number one crack," then "number two crack," "number three crack." You need to grab as many details as possible in that moment. And that's another good reason for paying your dog more generously — because you can keep paying the dog while you buy yourself some time to look around and say, what can I use to remember this hide? Maybe "crack near the threshold" or "crack left" — you choose a landmark, something stationary, and use that as your anchor point to say, in relation to that object, where is the hide that you found?

Yeah, I like that. And I want to tease out one small thing you just said — the idea of rewarding generously. Even if you're only doing one treat, that's a great little downtime. Your dog needs to chew the treat, otherwise they might not go back to hunting right away. And that's a little chance for us as handlers to look around and go, all right, what did we just find and where do we maybe want to think about going next?

That's usually a great little pause — just like the pause table in agility, which gives people a chance to stop running like a crazy fool and catch their breath. And this is a version of that, except in scent work.

When I showed under you, one of the things I loved was the hides that you set. When my dog alerts on one I'm like, really? Could that possibly be it? And I call alert because I trust my dog's training — and it's there. It sparks a little delight. It's not the common on a chair, not the common on a table. There was one search where you had two floor drains — and I know some judges shy away from floor drains — but you had mirrored hides there. I found one, didn't find the other just because I wasn't paying attention. But that delighted me. So when you're placing hides, what do you keep in mind? Do you think about what might delight your competitors when they find it?

Some judges really like to set hides that are complicated by themselves. I like hides that are straightforward, but because of the combination of several hides together or the space of the search area, I want to test teams on different skills. Many teams would not let the dog go out of the boundary much. I've seen people telling their dog "too far," or saying something like "I guarantee you it's not there." Another thing I tell my students a lot is — source is not outside of the boundary, but odor can be outside the boundary. Just because you cannot see it doesn't mean it doesn't travel away from the boundary. And telling the dog they cannot go out doesn't make sense to the dog at all. It makes sense to us because we see the cones and we know what the area is, but to them — the boundary markers are not false walls where odor stops. Excuse my language, but odor doesn't say, holy sh**, this is the boundary marker, I have to stop right here.

It doesn't make sense. And when you restrict the dog from going out — even when the dog hasn't crossed that boundary yet, some people are already restricting the leash. Sometimes judges place a hide knowing odor will be traveling out. If you don't let your dog go out it doesn't mean they cannot solve the problem, but it will just take a lot longer. Another analogy I tell my clients: it's like you're trying to solve a murder and rather than looking at clues everywhere, you insist your detective can only look at the dead body. You're like, this person is dead, look at the body, tell me who killed them.

Right.

And I'm not saying the dog can just go out of boundary for a long time without coming back — it's all within reason. If I interpret my dog's behavior as working and searching and trying to chase a clue or follow a scent trail, I'll let them go to a certain extent. And if I don't want them to go any further, I can just hold the leash. By holding that leash and not giving them any more, they understand I have no intention of following them or wanting them to go further. I don't even have to say a word. Just by holding that leash I am communicating to my dog — hey, this is as far as we go. And I usually stay pretty quiet when my dog is searching, because usually when I say something it draws a lot of attention on me as a handler. I just want my dog to know I don't want to go any further — but don't mind me, still keep searching.

You've run multiple breeds very successfully. I know a handler here in our area that has a Shiba, and I'm getting the impression Shibas are very independent — they kind of want to do things their way. Is that your experience?

Yeah, they're usually described as catlike. Stubborn.

So what other breeds have you run? And ultimately, what have you learned from running different breeds? Because I kind of joke to myself — I run an Australian Shepherd, and it's almost like someone who runs a Shiba versus me. They're probably better at training and handling if they're competing at the same level, because Aussies just have that high drive and want to please their owners. If you have dogs that don't naturally do those things it can be more challenging. So what have you learned from handling different dogs with different temperaments?

I'm glad I didn't start with my first Aussie, Cajun, as my first dog. The Shibas taught me about the drive, the motivation, the clarity you have to instill in a breed that doesn't understand what you want. For the Shibas I trained and handled in competition — knowing what I know now, I feel sorry for them. A lot of times they would find the only hide, or two hides, or whatever hides were in the search area. And because they don't look like they're actively and excitedly looking everywhere like some lab or Aussie or German Shepherd, I thought of them as not working. And when I thought of them as not working I asked them to check more, and they acted like I was the stupidest person ever. And then I felt like, oh, my dog's not working, we must have missed something. So I'd ask them to check more — it was just a vicious cycle.

I did not know what I didn't know. But if I understood what I know now, I would take a much different approach. Dogs can be trained without spending a large quantity of time. I'm a very lazy person — I tell my students I'm lazy. I don't train very often, but when I do train nowadays, I train important stuff. I don't just throw a bunch of hides and say let's go find it. There's a reason for what I want to do. I train with a purpose, and you can be a lazy trainer and still have good success.

I like it. Sandra's lazy training method. When you do train, give us an example of some of the very specific things you'll set up. What's in your top five training things for the lazy trainer?

First, for any scent work dog, it's the importance of the desire to hunt. Most people find a hide underneath a folding chair — very typical, meat and potatoes. You'd say that's an easy hide. But if you put that hide on a one acre search area and the start line is one mile away, is that an easy search? It is not. Not because of the puzzle type — it's just a silly chair hide. It's hard because where the dog starts, there is no odor. Does the dog have the desire to think the glass is half full and keep searching? It's very important to instill in a young dog that if they look, they will find something. You don't start with a hide on one acre far away — you build it up so that your dog is crazily optimistic about their opportunity of finding something.

Right. And maybe the first time it's ten feet away, the next time it's twenty feet, the next time thirty feet. You build that up incrementally.

Right. The desire to hunt is very important. The ability to identify target odor when it's readily available — that's easy. The hard part is when it's not right where you start. Does the dog have the desire to look for it and hunt for it? If they don't, that's the first thing I want to work on. The second piece — a lot of people focus on wanting an indication, wanting communication from the dog. I would say the most important thing of the game is not who has the best indication — it's about finding source. Some people put the cart before the horse and say they really want a strong indication. But at the end of the day it's finding the hide, finding source, that drives all the rewards. Without finding source, no matter what your dog does — whether they stand on their head and backflip three times, that would be a cool final response — it's not going to make a difference. I always tell people: if your dog doesn't know what to tell you, it doesn't matter how they tell you.

Yeah, right.

If my dog has any environmental sensitivities or is not comfortable with certain setups, I want to work on that outside of searching so they are counter-conditioning and okay to function in all environments. Another thing I work on with my young dogs is understanding that it's their job to move on from the found hide — not me moving them. My cue for Chiron is just "okay." Okay means you are okay to search on. I usually don't move a foot at all when I say it. He knows it's time to move on so he can quickly decide which direction to take and start searching right away, versus wandering around or running ten or twenty feet away from the found hide before thinking about searching again.

Yeah. Or being influenced by your movement. It comes back to what you said — you don't like to talk to them because you don't want to pull them out of that moment. You don't want to move after they found the hide because that also pulls them out of the moment. Let them decide.

Yes. I have gone through five or six personal nosework dogs. And Chiron is the best trained in terms of understanding moving on on his own. I didn't realize that's a skill we need until dog number five.

Okay.

He knows — until he hears the word "okay," which is my release to search again, you can say anything you want, but for me and for him it's "okay" — time to move on. I tell students it's like this bar is closing. If you want more beer and want to look for the next one, I'm not going to influence where you go — go find the next one. I'm going to pay you, I'm going to pick up the tab. But you've got to find the place that's open.

You've got to find the place that's open. I love it.

So dogs need to understand that. And in terms of training — if you want to train a concept or skill, there is no need to do it in a full blown search. I always tell people I can put hides really visible, multiple hides, and I pick up each hide as they find them so the dog is like, oh yeah, I got paid for this one. Mom picks it up, mom doesn't move, mom says to search again — and there's really another one nearby. Since I picked up the hide they just found, there is no way for them to keep asking to be paid again. Then they go to the next one and you pay them so generously. You are trying to build an understanding of — yes, you will get paid generously on each hide you find, but once mom straightens up and says the word to search again, there's no need to fumble around and ask for more. As they have that expectation you can start leaving the scent vessel on the ground to see if that assumption you built still holds, because eventually you cannot pick them up. This is an easy drill where you're just teaching a concept. You want all the hides to be found so the dog can practice moving on. Think of the skills you want to teach as concepts you want to teach in smaller segments rather than a real search — how can you get that message across and get more repetition so the dog is clear on what you want?

Sandra, this has been fantastic. We're going to wrap up now with the segment I call Seven Questions. Are you ready for this?

I guess so. I like to talk about training, but — you know, I listened to your podcast. I did my research too.

Good for you. All right — Seven Questions with Sandra Tung. Seven quick questions, a sentence or two, just whatever comes to mind first. And I'll skip the signature distractor question since you don't have one. Here we go. What's your dog's favorite reward after a great search — how are you a hot date for your dog, and be specific?

For the two Aussies I run right now, they are willing to eat anything. Cajun is on a restricted diet so he's always on Stella and Chewy Rabbit. Chiron can eat anything, so I very rarely use low value treats when I train. I think the Shiba trained me really well. I used to have a Shiba that thought string cheese was really low value. I remember going to Costco to buy some freshly cut mozzarella and the cashier was trying to make small conversation and said, how do you like this? I said, you'll have to ask my dog.

That's funny. What's one piece of advice you'd give your beginner scent work self?

Train for the desire to play, not for finding hides. Finding hides will come eventually.

That's great. What do you hope competitors say about your searches?

They are fair, they are doable, and they had a good time with it.

Fair, doable, and fun. That's good. If you have a tough trial day — and I don't know that you ever have based on how I've seen things go for you — how do you bounce back?

I have to remember — this is not world peace. Nobody gets killed. And my dog doesn't lie. My dog might have a misunderstanding, and I need to clarify whatever that misunderstanding is. So I need to pick myself up and have a good time with my dog no matter what the outcomes are.

Does your dog have a search quirk or a funny habit that made you laugh in a search? Do you have a quick story?

Both boys try so hard that their desire to go to source sometimes just makes me laugh. I got Chiron jumping on a windowsill that was very narrow — I don't know how he did it, but he jumped on it and found a hide on the windowsill. And Cajun — there are multiple times where it's an inaccessible hide but he tried to push himself through it and move things to get to source.

I love that drive. That's beautiful. And what's the best compliment you've ever gotten at a trial — as a judge or a competitor?

When I was running the Shiba, I had judges telling me — I don't know how you can read those dogs, but I have to hand it to you that you read them correctly.

I love it, Sandra. Thank you very much. Let's talk about where people can find you. The AKC Judges Directory — you can find Sandra there if you want her to come judge one of your trials. Facebook under your name, Sandra Tung. And you also teach scent work just under your name, Sandra. Anything else you want to say before we say goodbye?

No. It's been a pleasure talking with you and your listeners.

It's been so much fun. Thank you for sharing your time and perspective. I really appreciate all of that. And if you like this episode, be sure to let Sandra know and let other people know so they can listen and support this community. You can listen wherever you podcast or go to AlertScentWork.com. Sandra, thanks for being on Alert Scent Work.

Thank you for having me.