Penny Scott-Fox | Lessons from the First Master National

00:00 Scot

One of the things I absolutely love about this story and the chance to talk to you is you were at the very first AKC scent work trial. You know, first they were trying to figure out what this sport even looked like. Years later, you're back in the same place for the very first Master National. Not many people can say that they've done that.

That was like a wild, full circle moment. Did you realize that at any point, did that hit you in any way, shape, or form?

00:24 Penny

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, actually, and we'd had a hellish travel day getting out there. There's a whole other podcast actually about traveling with a dog.

We got there and I looked at Zest and I—and I judged a couple of breed specialties in the meantime, but it wasn't quite the same feeling as coming back to an AKC-run event and being, you know, one of the first judges and then coming in with a spectacular dog and just walking through. And it brought back so many memories of that first trial.

And actually, a couple of people had been in the first trial. Caroline Oldham was one of them. And so it was kind of like a deja vu. It was, it was, it was, it was, it was really quite exciting actually. And I, I hadn't really thought about it until you asked that question—that what that really meant—and it was, it was, it was… it was good. I felt, you know, part of something very special.

01:16 Scot

So the day before when you went through, were there some specifics going through your mind? You kind of alluded to some stuff, but was there more specifics? I really want to dig into that brain of yours.

01:25 Penny

Yeah. Well, well, because I knew the site really well, so it's just like, how are they gonna do it? You know, what exteriors could they possibly use? There's like two exteriors there that haven't been covered in 10 million peeing dogs.

01:40 Scot

Yeah.

01:40 Penny

So I said to two of my friends, “Well, I'm sure they're gonna use this as a search area because no dogs have been here.”

And actually they were extremely clever and kudos to them. They actually took us off site. Which, although it wasn't in the premium and a lot of people had a bit of a panic attack, it was the right thing to do. So a couple of the searches were offsite each day, which was a good thing.

But that was my thing. ’Cause I knew the areas intimately and I was just like, wow, I just don't know how they're gonna do exteriors. The rest wasn't so concerning to me ’cause it's easy to put buried anywhere and containers anywhere. But for exteriors, we were very slim pickings and, and they pulled it off.

02:20 Scot

Good. All right, well let me introduce this and let's get into the conversation. I'm Scot, Murphy and Keeva's dad, a scent work competitor, and this is Alert Scent Work.

And today, part two with scent work judge, organizer and competitor Penny Scott Fox, who is Zest and Tabs’ mom.

A little context in case you don't know Penny. One of the foundational figures in the sport of scent work in the United States, selected as one of the first core instructors when the sport was first being developed, went to advise AKC when they launched scent work, became their first scent work rep, and today she judges, designs searches, helps run some of the largest—I think the largest, actually—AKC scent work trials in the country.

Handled multiple dogs very, very well, Elite titles, widely respected. Did I miss anything?

03:04 Penny

No, that's very kind. It's a wonderful introduction. Thank you. I just have great dogs, but thank you.

03:12 Scot

I forgot. Incredible trainer. But, we'll get onto this. So.

You said—what was the atmosphere like? So when you first arrived in Ohio, we talked a little bit about what was going through your mind and kind of revisiting this place that you'd been, you know, years before when the first scent work trial for AKC happened there. What was the atmosphere like? What was the energy like and the scale?

03:31 Penny

I think—see I've, I've done quite a lot of national competitions in agility. So I've, I've, I've been around AKC for a while. But this was different because we just didn't really know how they were gonna do it, you know. It was a huge undertaking.

I hate to say this, but I think—and I, I know it wasn't great for them—but they were very lucky they didn't fill. There was supposed to be 400 dogs there and it ended up being 188 or something like that.

Because if there had been more, it would've been really, really challenging in that venue.

And I think people were just excited, but they, nobody knew. You know, the thing about AKC scent work is all the trials are run so differently. There's very little standardization between clubs. You know, my club does things very differently from other clubs because we have such big trials. I had to standardize it to a level and, and most clubs don't do what we do.

And so I think in the Midwest in particular, which is of course where we were, there was very much this vibe of “we do this this way,” and I think that's how the trial ran.

Not quite how I would've done it. There were some things—there was certainly room for improvement—but that's how it goes. That's what these inaugural events do, is you try them out and see what sticks and hopefully, you know, make the suitable changes for, for the future.

04:46 Scot

I wanna talk about the searches and hide design as a judge, and, and, and as a trainer, somebody who's been around doing this for a long time.

My first question is compared to like a regular Master trial weekend somewhere, do you feel that the odor puzzles at Nationals were more challenging, less challenging, or just kind of in line as to what you would see at any trial around the United States?

05:10 Penny

Oh wow. What a question.

Well, so, so here's the thing. There's a big difference across the country in AKC scent work and how things are set and designed. So, coming from California and in our clubs—and certainly when I'm judging—I don't, I don't stage searches at all. I'll, I'll show up to a site and go, “Oh gosh, there's nothing in the exterior. So I guess we're gonna have to have to do a ground hide and maybe a wall hide if there's a wall,” or… but I use the environment to make the search.

Here we had a lot of staged searches. That's just not my thing. I, I like to be a bit more puritanical, so I was surprised to see that.

But I gather in the Midwest that's very common. So I think nobody else was surprised. It was just me.

06:20 Scot

Yeah. Do you feel that the, uh, the, the odor puzzles that were set or anything about the competition beyond that was, uh, a little bit more difficult ’cause it was a Nationals?

I heard that there was like a four odor convergence, which I, I've never ran into. I've ran into three odor convergence before. Uh, what—first of all was that described properly to me? Was there a four odor convergence and is that a more challenging puzzle?

06:20 Penny

Yes. No, I'd say it was a three odor with a—with what I thought was a distractor until I counted the distractors.

So there was the exterior on the second day, very, very windy conditions. If you were late in the run order, which we were, Zest missed two hides there. But we can talk about my strategy in a minute. I didn't really care.

Because she was just—I didn't want any “no.” That was what I wanted going in.

There was a hide on a post, and then two mirror hides on two plastic benches, and then a hide in a cooler, and yeah.

For a two minute search, that was very challenging. I think several dogs got it, but they were early in the run order when it wasn't windy. And I think then it was okay. But once the wind picked up, there was really very hard for the dogs to distinguish between the two mirrored hides, including Zest.

I—it was, you know, it, it, to me it didn't matter, but I was surprised when I heard that there were four hides there. I, I didn't, I didn't feel like there were.

I think the hides were to the Master level really. I think they were pretty straightforward with—and here's something that I just don't really know the answer to. They were very long days and I think that the odors dissipated after time, based on where the hides were placed. So they weren't necessarily sustainable for such a huge number of dogs.

And I, I, I don't know, I think I'm gonna try this. I don't know if you refresh the hides at lunchtime and just see what happens, you know? ’Cause a hundred dogs is a lot to go through a search. And if you are at the end of the run order, it kind of sucks.

07:56 Scot

Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine it does. Yeah. You run really, really super big trials. So, um, have, have you experienced that odor kind of just disappearing over the co…

Because first of all, I wanna frame: when you have really big trials like that and you're trying to sustain a search area throughout the whole day, that's really challenging for a judge to do—to create those hides that are gonna kind of act the same way throughout the course of a six, eight hour day.

08:21 Penny

Yes. But there's, there's a thing about hide placement that makes them sustainable.

08:21 Scot

Got it. Okay.

08:21 Penny

All right.

08:21 Scot

Yeah.

08:21 Penny

So, and if—I mean, I didn't know the conditions. I didn't know it was gonna get really windy in the afternoon. I might not have—if I was judging that, I might not have accept what was set, based on the conditions that happened in the afternoon. But you don't know until you don't know.

You know, remember we talked about this last time. You know, I sit in a search area for a couple of, you know, a good hour, seeing what's going on with it before I even think about setting hides. So, um, I try to really imagine what could possibly happen. I'm not sure that was even considered ’cause they had so much to do. I don't know.

09:20 Scot

Yeah, yeah. Well that's true too. Right?

All right. Uh, I'm curious about the combined searches on day three. That's where they combined exterior and they had buried tubs out there and then they had a container and then, uh, the interior with containers. Talk about that. What was that like? ’Cause that's something brand new that's really never been done before. Is that correct? Or is that something that NACSW does?

09:20 Penny

No, no, no. I've seen it. I've seen it in a couple of Detective searches. I've seen containers in Detective searches. I've seen buried in, in Detective searches. It's not something I do actually.

So it's not brand new. The biggest problem was that we had these walkthroughs and then that was it.

I think it would've behooved them to have done video walkthroughs so people could have sat and, and really studied the search area and worked out, when they only have two and a half minutes to get around it, what their plan was.

You know, we got to see it and we asked questions and stuff.

In fact, the finals interior search we never got to see. We just had to do it blind, walking straight in.

Yeah, I—that, that's given me a, a training thing to think about actually of how to do a snapshot of a, of the room and, and, and process what I'm looking at before starting my dog.

I, I missed a hide in that one. But it just wasn't available at that time. Zest was one of the last dogs to run in that search and, um, it was placed, I think, on the fireplace. Nobody really knows, ’cause we haven't seen the searches with the heights—with the maps. But everybody said it was on the fireplace.

So I, I suspect it disappeared by, um, early afternoon and, and just wasn't available. I, I would be interested to look at the statistics and I doubt many dogs got it after the very early afternoon dogs. And I don't think many dogs got that hide anyway.

10:46 Scot

Right, right. Uh, I, I had a, I had a Master search one time where they had containers in it, and it was, it was an interesting thing. And I think if somebody's considering going to Nationals and they do this combined search, that's something you need to practice. ’Cause I do know some dogs at that level obsessed on the containers because there's so much value to containers that they had a hard time dismissing that and moving on to actually searching.

There was nothing in any of them. It was the boxes that you search in Novice actually is what was in the search area. So.

10:46 Penny

I've, I've seen—and they had, they had a couple of toolboxes in the, in the interior search and then a, a, a nice suitcase. It wasn't, it wasn't asinine, it was fine.

I mean, Zest cleared them and moved on. It wasn't…

And, and, and in the exterior search with buried, I think there were three buried containers. A lot of dogs falseed on one of the buried containers in the afternoon.

I'm not quite sure why. Zest showed, “Interesting. Oh God, there's sand out here. How weird,” and then just moved on.

11:41 Scot

Yeah.

11:41 Penny

Um, so I don't know. I don't know what happened there.

11:41 Scot

I don't know if this is accurate or not, but I thought I had heard that there was a hide—so this buried box that they false on, was it underneath the tree?

11:52 Penny

No, it was actually—the tree was to the right, which had a hide on it.

12:06 Scot

Yeah. Yeah. So you don't think, in your opinion, that tree was dropping into that box? All right, cool. I, I've heard people speculate maybe that's what was going on.

12:06 Penny

Well, and, and to be, to be honest, it would be nice to have had a video debrief.

You know, we we're all leaving and we're all, most of us are over the age of 30 and we can't remember anything and we're going through what we thought happened. But it might be completely different. You know, I no recollection of a fireplace in the interior section, you know, so, um…

You know, so that's something they should do in the future, I think. I, I, I think we deserve it actually. You know, we went a long way.

And, and, and the other thing is, you know, there's no, no record of our searches. We have a videographer for all our searches in our trials, and it would've been nice to be able to buy them to see what happened, to see, for me to see: did Zest show any interest in the fireplace? And I was just a idiot and missed it?

Or I—yeah, I don't think so, to be honest. Or, um, did—I mean, and I went both ways. Did she—was it just not available at that time?

And we've talked about this before, that sometimes odor’s just not available and there's nothing you can do about it. And it's just the nature of the beast, you know.

13:11 Scot

Were competitors allowed to wear cameras and film their own runs?

13:15 Penny

Nope. No. No cameras, no phones, nothing.

13:17 Scot

No, really? So you're—that that's something else that's gr— I always wear a camera and film my run so I can go back and review, but that was not allowed. Yeah, that would be nice if next year they would offer that as…

13:27 Penny

Well. I, I mean, I think they were concerned about cheating and I understand that as a national event.

But I think they could have a, a professional videographer there. It wasn't like there were a ton of searches to, to set up for and sell the videos off. It was a great way to make money for the AKC.

I know several videographers that do it. And, you know, there were some dogs that probably won't be around next year that were there. It'd be nice to have their videos.

I would love to see what Zest did in that interior, because I—I'm pretty in tune with her and I really didn't think that there was another hide.

13:59 Scot

Let's move on to scoring.

Scoring and strategy. So the scoring system was a little different than what we're used to when we show up at a regular Masters, uh, for, for a weekend.

Handlers could keep searching after an incorrect call, um, but they'd lose points. You got points for each, uh, hide you found. If you failed to call finish, then you would get deducted points. There were some faults that were applied as well. You'd lose some points.

How did that point system, the scoring system influence your decision making? Was that part of your strategy?

14:25 Penny

Um, it was absolutely enormous. It, it, it completely changed how I handled my dog. So, um, actually they took away the point deduction for incorrect finish call.

So basically you just needed to find hides. So, I didn't care. So all I cared about was finding hides and not getting any no’s.

So there—and it would've been better if you got a bonus points for getting the search correct. And it would've been better if you got a bonus points or more points for calling finish correctly—that would be the same thing.

So if you called finish correctly, you should have got, in my opinion, extra points. ’Cause that meant that you did the search properly and you, you achieved, you got all the hides.

But that's not what they did. So, so for me, I just went for speed and as soon as I found two or three hides, I called it because I took a gamble. ’Cause I knew that I just had to make the top 100. I didn't need to win. I didn't need to come in the top 10, I just needed to beat 88 dogs.

Whereas, you know, a lot of people took it very seriously and, and, and got and, and came in, you know, and placed in these searches. But for me, that was not on my list at all. I just wanted to find odor.

15:37 Scot

I'm glad you, uh, I'm glad you said that because I was a little confused as to what the strategy was there, but it's all about not trashing your dogs so your dog's fresh on day three.

15:51 Penny

Yes. If they changed the point system, I would play it differently, but that's what the point system meant to me.

15:51 Scot

So, so days one and days two, you had your strategy of just getting in, getting out, finding some hides. You, I, it doesn't sound like you were too concerned—you were 71st going into the finals, but I don't think that you really cared about that, because day three, that is the event, that is what you wanna dedicate your energy to. Is that correct?

16:03 Penny

Yes. I just needed, I just needed to make, I—who cares about being 71st? I don't think I've been 71st at anything in my life, but I think apart from now.

But it didn't matter because the, the slate was clean. There was nothing carried over, and I had a very fresh dog.

16:21 Scot

Yeah. I also think that that's a good strategy, not to get too worried about day one and day two, where you're placing, because that doesn't matter. All that matters is you get in the top 100 and make it to day three.

That's when it's game time. Right. So I, I talked to some people who stressed out a lot on the first day or the second day. “Where are we, how are we doing?”

And it sounds like you didn't have those thoughts because you're just like, “I just need to be good enough to make it to day three.”

17:03 Penny

Yeah, it's irrelevant. And, and they didn't even have placements for any of the searches. So even if you won the interior search on day one, there were no ribbons for it.

And E—even with the, the friends that I was with, you know, they were just like, they were kind of worried about the search and they just said, “God, you're just so relaxed.” I said, “We just need to make the top 100. It's all we need to do. So just enjoy it. Don't panic about hides missed unless, you know, you are, you know, um, worried that your dog's missing hides and stuff, then that's a whole different thing.”

But I, I wasn't worried about that.

17:20 Scot

Got it. All right, so then day three, how did the strategy change?

17:20 Penny

Had to find the hides.

17:26 Scot

At that time you had to be more accurate. You had had to get ’em all right.

17:26 Penny

You did. So I was probably a little slower in exterior. I don't know, I can't remember what my time was—two minutes or something.

We had two and a half minutes. I covered the search area and I rechecked an area and then called it.

There were three hides there. It was a hide in a plastic bucket, my favorite. Then there was a hide—I think it was in a fake sprinkler head. It might have been a real one, if it was a real one, I was just like, “Oh, wow. That's not gonna last very long.” But it might have been a fake sprinkler head, I'm not sure.

And then there was the hide in the tree, which I always laugh at—hides in trees make me laugh. And I said, “Zest, you're alerting on a tree. Okay.”

I love—the judge I like, I'd never met before, he actually came and found me afterwards and said what a lovely little working dog I had. And I, I, I was very nice and said, “Thank you. Yes. I think she's pretty good.”

18:16 Scot

Oh, that's nice.

18:16 Penny

Yes, it was nice actually.

And then—so we were around 49th in the first search. So, but in the morning, you know, two and a half minutes, so took some time. And then the afternoon I got put back down to the end.

So I ran—you know, we were divided into 50/50 and I ran again at like 48. I don't know quite how that happened ’cause everybody else got flipped, but somehow my name got to the end.

And I think, you know, Zest is great. She found three hides really nicely, really clean. And then I called it because there was nothing else to do, and we must have missed a hide.

As we've talked earlier, I, I, I'm not—to me the hide wasn't available anymore. It was probably the least found hide in finals, I suspect, although I haven't really looked at it. Fireplace hides can be difficult. I don't know what the odor was. You know, there's so many different variables, but with that number of dogs, I might mess around at our trials and see what happens by refreshing the odors and just, and just see. There's no harm, right?

So then just see if that makes a difference, you know. So it's given me something to think about and to mess around with my students. You know, maybe I go to a park and put out hides the night before and then come back and see what happens and so on. And just, just a different level of training, you know.

19:51 Scot

That was a big motorcycle that just went by.

19:53 Penny

It was.

But, um, you know, well, we'll see. We had fun. I, you know, I, I, I would like to have done better, but top ten's not shabby. Number one Toller is not bad, you know.

21:03 Scot

Right. Yeah. What was your goal going in? What did you want? I mean, I, I think I know.

21:11 Penny

Yeah. I wanted to win. Of course I did. And Zest is brilliant. So, um, but…

It is just what, you know, you can't—the run orders are, whether they're round or—there's nothing you can do about that. And I had to, and I, and I purposely did not get upset about it. I was just like, “This is what it is. Um, I'll just go in and we'll just do the best we can and—yeah. And we did.”

And, you know, to be in the top 10 is fine. I, I think I might do things slightly differently next time. Not, not the two days, unless they, if they change the score system, then I'll change my strategy. But as, if the score system stands as it is, then I wouldn't change anything.

And I think I might, you know, maybe I should have gone around the room one more time. I, I don't think so. I, I think that that's not how I am and that's not how I am with my dog. I don't think it would've made any difference. I just don't think it was available.

21:32 Scot

Yeah.

21:36 Penny

Yeah.

21:36 Scot

Question about Zest. So did you have any great “that's my dog” moments that stood out for you?

21:36 Penny

Yes. She, she, she has, she has a, a yodel on command ’cause she's not allowed to scream like a Toller.

And when we went back to our chair—chair number two position—going into the exterior search, I said, “Zesty, do you just wanna give a little yodel?”

And she yodeled her head off and I was just like—and these people were just like looking at me and I, and I think they were a bit nervous, and, um, and I just started laughing.

22:01 Scot

Yeah.

22:01 Penny

That's my…

22:01 Scot

Maybe that, maybe that broke a little bit of the tension. Made people a little less nervous. Yeah.

22:13 Penny

Well, and, and I, and I think the sad part is that yes, we all get nervous. I do too.

But in the end it's just, you know, another day out with your dog and you just get to have fun with ’em. And Zest could tell us she loves her ribbon. It's totally her colors. She thinks it's pretty great.

Um, but it's—that's what it is. And the fact that we got to go and, and, and be with our dogs and, and show everybody what our dogs could do, was, was pretty great really.

23:08 Scot

Right. Tell me, uh, give me something that Zest did for you that just made you so proud. What were you the proudest of? Of both, both for Zest and then you as a team?

23:37 Penny

I think the whole thing that I have with Zest that I really like—uh, uh, let me rephrase this. ’Cause Zest is nuts. And if you don't know—well, you know Zest—Zest is completely nuts and people don't realize that Zest is really nuts.

But the fact that I have really brilliant leash control with her, and we can dance around a tree when there's a hide on a tree, and I realized that's happening and I didn't get the leash tangled up once.

And I can, I can like pull in the leash and swing around and she'd call alert and then I can recast and we can go off to the next hide—is really what we do.

Yeah, it's what—this is what I do with all my dogs and it's, and it, and—but, but Zest in particular ’cause she's so damn fast that I have to be really quick on my feet to control that leash.

And I never run her off leash. And they had all the searches were off leash options. I never run Zest off leash ’cause she'd just fly around and jump in somebody's chair and steal their cookies. It would be just like—it would just be nuts.

So I, I can't do that. And I choose not to. ’Cause I like that control.

We like that control together. She, she likes—’cause in agility, she's nuts. So, but in scent work, she likes the fact that I'm controlling her on leash. I know it because she, she has this feel when she's hitting odor and I can feel the change down the leash and I can wait for her to sit and I can call it.

That's beautiful. It's just fantastic. And, you know, you could blindfold me and I could call alert without even knowing where the, where my dog is, just based on the feel of her movement as she hits.

24:01 Scot

That's so cool because I, I wanna jump in and just say, because I've, I'm beginning to learn through these conversations. So much of this, and I, I didn't appreciate this as much, is about communication.

And you two have just described a type of communication I haven't heard of before. Most of it's watching our dogs, watching how they move, but like you feel that through the leash, it's transmitting from your dog through the leash to you. And I think that's so cool.

24:19 Penny

I, I do an exercise with my students where I blindfold them. And it's not some weird, kinky thing. It's just like—or, or I make sure it's dark enough that they, they can't really see their dog.

So then we put a collar, a lighter collar on the dog and they have to call alert with just based on the leash behavior.

25:01 Scot

Oh, that's cool.

25:01 Penny

It's really fun. And it's really—and you learn, you feel it. You just feel it.

I haven't got it with Tabs yet. But I had it with Blaze. I had it with Turner and, and I, I have it with Zest and it'll come with Teva. She's just a baby.

Who was it I was describing it to as like, we were an avatar. You know, you know that movie Avatar where we, we plug in and we're like connected? And that's, that's what me and my dog's leash is. It's like that Avatar connection.

25:37 Scot

That's such a cool sounding exercise because I love these exercises that change how you perceive what's going on or gives you new ideas and I think that exercise would definitely do that.

25:51 Penny

Well, and I, and I think, I think we have to remember. And, and this is really basic, but some people forget about this and, and a lot of people sort of keep thinking that the dogs are using their eyes.

Well, when you run a dog like Zest, she's too far—she doesn't use her eyes. She doesn't even use her eyes in field. She switches into nose mode and finds the dead bird, wherever it is. And that's why she's so good at it, because she doesn't look for the bird, she just trusts her nose to do the same thing.

So I think if we translate that to having the dog’s nose be their eyes and take away our eyes and stop trying to influence how they're searching, then something quite extraordinary happens.

25:37 Scot

Wow. That's almost zen like, Penny.

Zen and the Art of Scent work right there. I love it.

25:51 Penny

Well, it's, it's—I mean, but it's true, isn't it?

25:53 Scot

It's true. As, as you're describing it, I'm right along with you, for sure.

25:51 Penny

Now I've find an exercise on how to do that.

25:53 Scot

We're, uh, we're getting close to time here. I wanna be respectful of your time. So I got a couple last questions.

For somebody dreaming about qualifying or going next year, I should say, not necessarily qualifying, but going, what advice would you give about preparation and mindset if they go to next year's Nationals?

26:08 Penny

I think, I think the key is to try to go with an open mind that they're dogs and in any dog sport, anything can happen and to just try and enjoy the time with your dog.

I think people stress way too much about, um, you know, that they want to do well and everybody wants to do well. We're just human beings. But I think if you can divorce yourself from that and try to enjoy the time with your dog, then I think it becomes something quite incredible.

26:36 Scot

I'm gonna tell you a couple things I heard in this conversation that I think I'm gonna take away. One is, it comes back to the joke that judges always tell, “Did you read the rules?”

Because the rules dictate the game. And this was fundamentally a different game than we're used to when we go out and we do our weekend scent work.

So, you know, think about your strategy from the standpoint of: what are the rules? What is the game actually being played here? And maybe develop the strategy that way. I think that was really one of my big ones.

27:04 Penny

Well, I agree and I saw a lot of complaints on Facebook with people complaining about different things, but they just didn't read the rules. It was very clear.

And they were just saying, “Well, we didn't expect this and we didn't expect that.” But actually it was straight right there in the premium. The only thing that wasn't was being taken off site to do a search.

And I acknowledged them for doing that ’cause it meant we weren't in a contaminated area. But it did put some people into orbit. A panic attack ’cause they didn't have a car and they had to find somebody to take them there.

27:36 Scot

Oh yeah, sure. That would be challenging.

27:38 Penny

Yeah. Yeah. So we were lucky. But I can see how that could be, um, really unnerving if you are a nervous exhibitor anyway, and then suddenly you've gotta find a ride.

28:09 Scot

Yeah, right? Like Uber's probably not gonna take you and your dog.

28:13 Penny

No, no. So that, that was, that, that did sort of shake up a few people.

And, and I, I don't disagree that if you didn't know, and we didn't, nobody knew that—that was quite a shake up for them. If you are, if you are worried.

But I, I, I think you have to just go with an open mind. It's a horse race. Anything can happen.

28:15 Scot

Yeah. Right. And that's why you show up because anything can happen.

28:13 Penny

Exactly.

28:15 Scot

You, uh, you have your ear to the ground, you have some, uh, some contact, some influence. Do you have any early hints on, uh, next year's Nationals? Uh, any, anything that you can pass along?

28:25 Penny

Um, I, I, I, I don't know what they're gonna do. I don't know if they're gonna stay there.

Um, I would hope they'd find a new location, but they might just be married to that site.

I think that if they end up having more dogs, they're gonna have to really think about how to do it.

Because it wouldn't be fair to have two simultaneous searches going on at the same time and saying that they're the same search ’cause they can't possibly be.

Um, I, you know, I, I don't know. They haven't said anything. I'm, I'm not that in the know.

28:55 Scot

Oh, okay.

28:57 Penny

But if, but if they go back and do it there again, I'll go back again. I'll certainly give it another go.

29:01 Scot

I gotta say, I'm hoping it's in California next year. Do you think there's any chance that's gonna happen?

29:07 Penny

Well, it'd be nice. Well, and, and also, you know, I mean, I can get these sites, you know, it's just, it's, you know, I can get the most fabulous sites.

I'd be happy to, to help them get a site. If it was in California, there are a lot of Master dogs here. They would certainly fill it.

A lot of my students would wanna do—I don't wanna run it, I wanna run in the trial.

Right. But I could certainly offer some advice.

29:29 Scot

So what, uh, advice would you offer for how to make things better next year?

29:33 Penny

I think it would help having a video walkthrough so that you could look at the search and work out your search pattern without being rushed with everybody being there.

But all in all, it was great. The, the, the biggest complaint I have is that the exhibitors just didn't get to the searches on time.

And so these poor volunteers spent ages screaming for these exhibitors who, God knows where they were. ’Cause they didn't have anywhere else to go, but they were just, you know, they—and at, at any other national event, they would've been disqualified.

And so, um, I think moving forward, if there's any takeaway is: if somebody doesn't show up for their search, then they need to be NQ’d. And I think that would make people a lot more accountable.

We lost hours waiting for people to get there. And I, and I think, um, just the way they, they structured that could be improved. You know, we, as, as you've said multiple times, you know, we do huge, huge trials. They had this app that just didn't really work and an app's only as good as the person handling it. And if they're not refreshing it, then not a lot's happening.

Yeah. And people were staging in the corridors, you know, 10 dogs deep, which is just not good. It's not—I'm not talking about reactivity of dogs or anything like that, ’cause AKC has no tolerance for that, but just dogs on the edge, wanting to search and having to sit there for an hour is just not good for the dog.

30:41 Scot

Yeah, that's pretty rough.

30:43 Penny

It is. So I came up with a plan. I just said—I sat, I left Zest in her crate and I sat in my chair and I moved up and moved up and moved up.

And then when it was two chairs in, I knew it had to be four minutes. I said, “This is me. I will be back,” and I left my bait bag on the chair so nobody had taken, and I went, “Zest,” and then came back to my spot.

So she only had to wait for two minutes.

31:06 Scot

Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty smart. That's a good strategy. I think that's a good tip.

31:11 Penny

Yeah. Contrary to what I told myself, I took over one search and started manning the gate. I can't help it. I just can't watch this. And so I took over until that was finished.

31:23 Scot

You and I sound a little the same there. I think that that's kind of one of my superpowers. I'm not one to say that I really have a lot of superpowers, but moving people, yeah, efficiently and having people there—like I, I always feel good when I volunteer at a trial ’cause I think I do that well. I don't know why.

31:39 Penny

I, well, I think we're both producers, we both understand the value of production, whatever the background, whether it's radio, TV, dog training or whatever. And we both have come from that. So we understand how to keep things…

31:53 Scot

Is there anything that we missed? ’Cause you have, you know, you have such a broad perspective of an event like this. We've covered a ton.

Um, is there anything that I didn't ask about or that I missed that you just feel compelled to talk about that you saw that you think you need to bring up?

32:09 Penny

I, I think, I think the, the one thing that they did so well was the ribbons. I think they, they're lovely and they made a real effort. They're, they're beautiful colors. They're my favorite colors.

But they're, you know, I think it was really nice to have the top 25. I think that was a really nice thought, because, you know, if you look at the time, some of them are just nanoseconds. It's not like, you know, the, the 25th dog was probably, you know, six seconds behind the 15th dog. I don't know.

Yeah. I'm talking off the top of my head. So I think that was a nice acknowledgement. It was a fun first event.

32:42 Scot

Penny, thank you so much, um, for being on the show again, part two, shaping the sport in its early days, uh, and then telling your story about what it was like standing line at, at the line, at the First Master National.

That's like an experience that I think most of us can only hope to build towards. So thank you for sharing that and what it was like out there and just everything you keep doing to raise the bar for the rest of us. I really appreciate all of it.

33:09 Penny

Oh, it's a pleasure. I, I really enjoy these. It's so much fun. It's just nice to talk about our dogs and, and just do what we do, you know?

33:18 Scot

It is, isn't it? It is.

33:20 Penny

Yeah. I wanna come back again.

33:23 Scot

Yeah. You had a good time again.

33:26 Penny

Yes.

33:27 Scot

Good. I love it. All right. Well, I'm Scot, Murphy and Keeva's dad. Thank you very much, Penny, for being on the show. This is Alert Scent Work.

So until next time, be sure to trust your dog and just enjoy the search.