Penny Scott-Fox & Jeff McMahon | Penny Scott-Fox and Jeff McMahon | Getting the Most Out of a Scent Work Camp

As you can tell, there's something a little bit different about this Alert Scent Work episode. A little something different going on. I'm at the Penny Scott Fox Scent Work Camp in Galway Downs in California. So I was coming here just to be a member of the camp and Penny's like, I've got this great idea. Who's heard her say that before? Right. I got this great idea, actually. She said, I've got this brilliant idea.

Yes, that's a bit more brilliant.

Yes. And her brilliant idea was to actually record this podcast here. And I thought, that's great, that's going to be fun. So that's what we're doing. So we've got Penny Scott Fox. Give it up for Penny, the namesake and also somebody I had never met before, but had some great sessions as well. Another one of the instructors here, Jeff McMahon. That's awesome. So I want to dive into this first idea. We're at a scent work camp. All of us have that in common. A lot of us have gone to those or training things like, how can we get the most out of that camp experience? And I think for me, it starts with a mindset that might be a little different than what we do when we go to trial or we're training at home. So, Penny, do you. What's some advice that you have for somebody? We should have done this day one really, but, you know, we should have done really, but it'll be for next year. Like, what's some advice that you have for somebody to try to get the most out of an experience? Like.

Well, I think it's the first thing I say when we do the intro to camp is leave all preconceived ideas away and just try, try it on and just allow us to teach you some different things. And I think we did that this week. I really do. And some people really loved it. And some people said, I'll think about it and some people will probably never do it again. And that's okay.

Right? You get a lot of pushback to new ideas. Not only because I've never done it that way. It feels weird. Or maybe there's other reasons. What are some of the common reasons people you feel give you pushback?

Yeah, I think it's because their instructors have told them not to do it and then they're nervous that it's going to break their dogs and they're nervous that they're going to look bad. I think the camps historically have always been a really like minded group of people and everybody wants their dogs to look fantastic. So when I'm making them do something that they don't feel comfortable about, they're not looking quite their best. And so I often say, I know you have a great dog. I'm just trying to teach you something different.

It can be hard to be vulnerable like that.

Yeah, yeah. And we've had people cry. Yeah. Yeah.

What do you do when people cry?

Why do you think...

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply. But when people cry, how do you.

I think it's just a lot of emotion. And, you know, you're here with your dog, it's very intense. It's three days of a lot of work. We try to give you options to rest if you need to, but most people are just like, all on. Want to do everything all day long, all night long, party, go back to searching. And these poor dogs actually, by the last day are really pretty tired. But they. And if somebody told me today I've broken their dog is the first time in four years that their dog has actually been tired. And I was just like, I don't.

Know that I would say that broke them, though.

No, I don't think so.

Because people get really sensitive about, like, I'm going to break my dog.

Yes. No, but I mean, she was just. She has a really bouncy, golden. And he was really tired by the end of yesterday, and today he pulled it off and he got back into it. But I think he's. He's learned a lot, and I think he was really tired.

Yeah. These camps can be really challenging, not only to dogs, but humans, because they're learning some new ideas. Yeah. Jeff, when I came into your first session, I was the first one. In the first session, I went in with very much a kind of a scent work, competition mindset, I think. And I had a little problem with my dog. She didn't want to go in, and if I was at a trial, I, you know, would try to coax her in or whatever. And you just really stopped me and made me realize your sessions were going to be a little bit different than I expected. How. What kind of advice do you have for people to try to, you know, get over that. That aspect of, like, trying new things.

When you come to a camp like this, Penny and I know what the dogs are capable of, and so it's just a matter of us getting the people to loosen up and let the dogs wow them. So in your case, I just had to take the leash, tell you to relax and step back.

Yeah. Talk about wanting to look good. Right. And the very first thing is you're.

Taking my leash and let the dog wow you. Right. And that's what I'm there for, is to try and remind people this is a being that's trying to communicate with you. We all came here to have fun and read our dogs, so we have to be able to get ourselves relaxed in a place to be able to do that.

Yeah. Do you try to create an aura of trust in those groups?

Yeah. Ideally, people don't. A lot of people now don't know me. The first few camps that we did, it was all people who knew me intimately. It was all students Penny and I had worked with for a long time. And so the trust was built. People have no reason to trust me here, except for Penny says they must.

I'm aware.

And I didn't say it much in this year, but I'm aware that it's not a small ask for people to just trust me. Right. And by and large, people do. We get a little bit of pushback and a little bit of anxiousness or worry, but if someone can just loosen the grip a little, the dog will do the rest. And that's what I'm trusting, is that if we can just let this dog communicate, then the next step will reveal itself.

What's some of the pushback that you see that people come with?

It's just classic stuff. So in your session, it's questions like, where does the search start? How many hides are there? When should we pay? What's out of play? What's in play? As we discussed, these are all questions that when you have a dog and you're searching, can probably be answered by watching the dog. Right. So the pushback we get is that people just want answers from people. They don't really want to wonder about what the dog could tell them.

And that's all common stuff that we do at trial. Right. So that's a really hard habit to break.

Yes, all habits are hard to break.

Right. And I'm actually going to talk to you about that in a second because I think you might have some insight for us. Quickly, one, words from the audience. What is your kind of hesitation when you're introduced with a new idea, like in a word or two, that stops you from doing it? So I will start by sharing. I want to prove that we're good, that we belong here, that we've actually put in the work. Right. Like, that means a lot to me. And sometimes I have to let that go, to be vulnerable, to try things and fail marvelously. Anybody else want to share quickly just a word or two? Fear. Fear of what in particular?

Embarrassment.

Fear of embarrassment. What else? I heard something over here. What's that? Trust and faith. In what? In the system. Yeah, yeah. That they're not going to break your dog. What are. What's some other internal type things that keep you from sometimes fully giving yourself to it? You want to have your dog have a positive experience, so you're being an advocate for your dog. And sometimes you're afraid, ooh, maybe this might like the 80 box challenge. Might not be a positive experience.

Could we unpack?

Yeah.

So that's a common one, right? So some of you have heard me talk about projecting onto our dogs, and that's a common one. We project. I want my dog to have a positive experience, but a lot of the time we don't even really think what that is from the dog's perspective. Okay. So, like, for example, if you're just watching a dog be a dog, they do a whole lot of stuff that in this context you're going to say is not positive, but I'm betting it's positive to them because they're choosing to do it right. So that's the place we start from. And then from there we turn inward and say, what am I really saying? That I want to have a positive experience with my dog? Right. Is that possibly a little more correct that both of you want. You want a positive experience with your dog, and if we connect with that, then you're being a little more honest. And now you can ask of your dog if they will invite you into their experience so that the two of you can enjoy something you would both consider positive.

Jeff, incorporating new stuff, you come to something like this and you get so many ideas, and then maybe it's time to go back home and you want to start to incorporate it. Or even during the sessions, like I was trying to incorporate stuff, and I find that really hard because we're habitual creatures. We go up to that start line and all of a sudden all that stuff fades away unless we're conscientious about it. What are some thoughts about breaking those habits to try to incorporate new practices?

Well, I'd turn the question back on you because you have been trying some of this stuff. How has it felt to try it, and what do you think it's going to take to stick with something or to maybe modify and make it your own?

Fair. In a search this morning I had to sit down for five minutes. I had to pull my notebook out and I have to go, all right, what do I normally do? And is there some sort of a trigger when I get there that I'm going to go, all right, wait, let's interrupt this old habit and try to start a new habit. That's what I do.

Yeah, that's honestly one of the first steps. You have to have self awareness or you have to have a friend who says, oh, you said you didn't want to do that. Right. Because that's the first step is, oh, I'm doing something I said I didn't want to do. Well, what do I want to do in its place?

Right, got it. And sometimes I think the other thing that I find I do is if I don't do it the way I wanted to, then I get really down on myself. Like, we all got to give ourselves some grace too, because doing new things is hard. And maybe you don't remember until halfway through an exercise or a search. Right. And that's cool. Right? That is a step in the positive direction. But sometimes we're like, oh, I didn't do it right.

Well, and a couple of little phrases we threw out in some of the sessions. You know, trade expectation for appreciation. This may sound glib, but it is a mindset. If you keep reminding yourself, expectations can only lead you to feel like you failed. Right. Because even if you meet the expectation, you're just going to set a higher one next. Right. And so appreciation gives you the grace to be in situations and just handle them as they come. And then the other one would be the Rumi line, you know, there's a field beyond right and wrong. I will meet you there. What did we say about most of us? That we're left brained. We're type A personalities. We don't need to be right, but my God, we can't be wrong. And those aren't my words. Those come from other people, but they resonate and maybe resonate with a lot of you. So if you can keep in your mind that right and wrong, expectations, those are not helpful. Never. Right. That's a good step. Good starting point.

Penny, thoughts on what we've just discussed, or we could dive back into this idea of what's some advice you would give to somebody. I come up to you afterwards and I'm like, thank you so much. This has been just a transformational experience. All the exercises. How do I incorporate this now without getting overwhelmed? Or how do I just incorporate in general?

Well, that's a lot of questions.

It is a lot of questions. I broke the interviewing rules there, but I'm giving you free rein.

Thank you. So one of the things that I love about camp is how different Jeff and I are and that we present and we push the people in different ways to learn. I compete a lot. I'm very competitive, so I'm always trying to push the teams to be better and to try and learn maybe how I do something and whether that makes them more successful or not. Whereas Jeff is very sort of surreal and on a completely different planet to me.

Is it a nice planet, at least?

I don't know. And so that's what I love, is that there's such a range of experiences between us, and even though we get very different results and everyone's happy because they get different things from both of us. And I never worry about what I'm going to teach at camp. I always sort of test it out on my Wednesday class normally to see if it's going to work or if it's going to be horrendously embarrassing for somebody or if the teams are going to learn something and it's going to be useful. And if it's not useful but it looks fun, then I don't really get too upset about that. But I think that's the key, is that we're so different, and they get all this philosophy stuff from Jeff, and I'm just here for the dog. And we've had some fantastic dogs, and I love watching the dogs. Can I talk about the first day exercise?

Yeah, absolutely. That was actually going to be the next thing I wanted to talk about, a couple of the specific exercises.

And you all did it. So the first exercise was about observing breed tendencies and genetics in the dogs during scent work, because we don't really do that. We just assume they're all going to sniff. But a sighthound works so completely differently from a golden retriever or a border collie or a Toller and this, that and the other. So what I set up was a distance challenge where there was a hide. Initially it was on a tree, but hide on a chair about, I don't know, 60ft away, probably maybe 70ft away. And I asked the handlers, I insisted that they let their dogs off leash, which was one big panic attack for some. And I said, in the words of John Rogerson, if your dog runs away, then you didn't want to be with you in the first place.

Who finds that reassuring?

But God bless him because he's passed away. But that's exactly what he'd say if people were nervous about unclipping their leashes. And I kind of agree with him. I said to people, I'll give you a caveat. If you really, really are going to have a heart attack, because we're going to unclip the leash, then use a long line. And a couple of people did in the previous camp, not this camp actually, and it was fine. And then they realized that they were missing the experience because they didn't get to see their dog's genetics because they controlled the dog with a leash. So they had actually fairly decent leash handling skills, but they didn't get the experience. So the experience was 70ft away. Hide, let the dogs drive to the odor and watch how they did the search. And I think we can fairly happily say that all the dogs really showed their genetics and how they did that search. And I tried to commentate as much as I could as we were going. And then when we succeeded in that, then we made it I think it was like 110ft away. And the dogs really learned from the first round and they all did the search just much more efficiently. So it was really cool to watch. And I mean, I hope that it made people think about their breeds and how different they are and how different. I constantly get people asking me how can I speed my dog up to be as fast as Zest? And my answer is get a Toller. You know, it's not. I can't get a sighthound to do that. Sighthounds are brilliant at Fast CAT and all this and they have the genetic makeup to do that. And it's amazing when people have sighthounds in scent work because nothing's moving and yet they manage to do it. And I think that's just fantastic.

I find it fascinating that you had this idea of what that exercise was going to teach. And that's not bad. This is good. This just goes to show how experiences can be interpreted differently by different people. And that's beautiful, actually. So definitely we saw that. We saw how the herding dogs would go out and around. We saw how other dogs would go straight. But one of the things, and I think this is for me anyway, something I try to remember is beyond the tips and the practical stuff you learn, like I built trust with my dogs that day. There was a little trust deposit for my dog because I had an expectation of what my girl dog was going to do. I thought she was going to run around and go crazy. And she didn't. She actually did what she was supposed to. She ran around a little bit and was a little crazy. But she offered to repeat then. And I was like, wow, okay, I trust you a little bit more. And that's an experience that's hard to get.

And the flip side of the exercise was to get the handlers to trust their dogs and to see the joy. And some of them said, oh, my dog's just going to run off. But they didn't. They ran around the field and then they went, wait, what? There's odor. And then suddenly they became odor obedient. There was some confusion in some of the dogs that then they decided to run around a bit more and take a rain check and come back to the odor. But that's okay. It didn't do anything bad for them. It just gave us more information about how we need to have more value for odor or have better value treats or maybe not go so far away or something like that.

You know, that exercise, did it build trust? And did anybody learn to trust their dog a little bit more? Look at that. Wave hands to the sky. That is fantastic. That's so cool. And I think if you start to, if you try to, after you do these exercises, maybe go beyond what you're told the exercise is supposed to do and really tap into what did I experience, what did I feel? And that's a muscle that needs to be developed. You can extract so much more and you end up with a full notebook that you don't know what to do with at the end because now you're overwhelmed. But more on that later. Let's talk about your game. That got everybody talking. And Penny cracked me up because she's like, in Jeff's session, people are going around acting like they're animals and now they're going to come do boxes. Like, you're never supposed to follow kids or pets, right. So let's talk about the what if game. Tell me about the what if game, how that came to be briefly, and why you do it.

Yeah.

So games like this, I do just naturally like to be playful with wordplay, jokes, playing around with environment. So these games, like the what if game, they just originate out of, in this case, watching Forged in Fire with my daughter and watching how they do these knife challenges and then seeking out more information on one of the judges who we really liked, and finding out he had a video about self defense with a baseball cap. And I kind of watched it and said, what if all you had was a baseball cap and you had to defend yourself against an attacker. And then a couple days later, I went to teach. Those are classes. And I said, could I do a what if in the context of nose work? With the things that people have come to think they can just rely on having access to or that it'll be this certain way? Can I remove something or add something in a playful way that challenges them? So that's kind of the genesis of that.

So let me give you some examples. I think that would be a good idea. So the what if game, you would run a search, and there was a what if scenario. So what if you can't use your leash, but you have to stay connected to your dog? Which in our session led to the conversation that, well, maybe that means you have to use your shoelaces. In my case, I use my belt, which fundamentally changed how I handle my dog. Because now I don't have a long leash. I'm practically on top of my dog. What if you put your treats on the ground and then go search? That was a fantastic one. What if you put the leash around your waist? What if the crowd has to be a different animal every time you find a hide? How's the dog going to react to that? What if every time you find a hide, two people join you in a conga line and start mimicking you? What it did for me was it kind of took my brain off of all the stuff that I focus on most of the time. Maybe not in the most helpful way, because I'm focusing on this other stuff, and you kind of see things differently. You start to behave differently, you process things differently. And I think that's because you get out of your normal routine. So that's what I took away from it. Again, it's kind of looking beyond what is the lesson to teach. But the other lesson I think that we all really took away is nose work should really be called nose fun.

Yeah. Or nose play.

Yeah.

We say we get into this because it's fun, but how many times do we actually have fun? Or how many times are we really stressed? So being able to do some play and release like that. And it was really cool to see how the dogs reacted to it, and they were having fun as well. So did anybody feel a little silly doing that at all? But by the end, who didn't feel silly all of a sudden? Exactly. No hands went up. I love it. Any thoughts on any of that before we move on?

I've played the what if game before when I haven't been teaching with Jeff. When we used to have camp up in Big Bear, and it was people just to get so creative to work out what to do, and people are so silly. And we had somebody jump in a cart, and I think somebody used Connie's wheelchair, and it's just. It's not something I would do because I wouldn't be able to come up with enough scenarios. They'd be too serious. So I'm really pleased that Jeff can make everybody smile and have them be able to get out of their comfort zone, because I think that's really what it is. And Dee's waving. I think it's amazing how it kind of releases the dogs, makes them feel a little bit more confident.

Yeah, the comment was, it's cool how it releases the dogs, makes them feel more comfortable. Because our stress kind of goes away because we're so busy focusing on this other thing now. Not looking good. You know, we're not worried about how good do I look right now because I'm not finding hides. Because you're doing something that's even more ridiculous than that, perhaps. At least that was my experience.

Yeah. I would say in this camp, we had a couple people that had to turn into shoe-hands handlers. So they lost their hands inside their shoes. They had to handle, leash, and deliver treats with their shoes for hands. And that's one where you just cannot wonder whether you look dumb or not because you're focusing so hard on the process of it. And I believe we had one person who I said, I'll let you become regular hands again. And she goes, no, I'm committed. It's so fascinating watching how quickly people adapt. If you throw them off just enough, if you make it seem like, well, there isn't really a way I can do good or bad at this, so I guess I'll just do it. And then suddenly they're adapting. They're actually doing really good at it. That's kind of some of the fun of those games.

Yeah. So I think the takeaway for me is this. When I go home to do some of those what if things, make them up. Part of it's just experimenting. Like, what if I did this? What's my dog going to do? And who knows? You might stumble across something really, really cool. Plus, it also just makes it more fun. So I think that there is value in games. I want to hit the 80 box challenge and then we're going to wrap this up. So the 80 box challenge, that was really challenging for people.

Yes. So we had a practice session beforehand. And normally a lot of people now around the country do the hundred box challenge. It's something I did in a previous camp and has been adopted. But since I started doing these challenges and we had one up in Big Bear where it wasn't a grid system. So I decided to do a grid and I decided to ask the campers to walk a spiral pattern so that the dogs hit every box and I allowed them a walk through. And so we had. It was 8 by 10 boxes in a grid form. And so they learned to go around the outside and spiral back in until they hit the odor.

Keep their dog on that path.

And keep the dog on the path. And it's a trained skill which I do for containers. If it's a grid pattern, I've always done it. And it's far faster than doing an S shape back and forth. And you all know that I'm very competitive so I'm always trying to find what's faster or more efficient. It doesn't have to be necessary. It just has to be more efficient and clear to my dog on what I want. So we did it and people did really well in the end. Today was very challenging. There were only four hides out and they had three minutes to find them. And I changed the rules a bit and allowed them to have a couple of false alerts. So then people relaxed a little bit because they knew that if they made a mistake it wasn't over. And you know, this is camp. I don't want you to feel bad because it's over because your dog false alerts or hits a box next to the box. And we had pretty extreme conditions. You know, it was up in the mid-90s by the time we finished the last round. And so the dogs did great and the handlers did great. And I was very lucky to have somebody run one of my dogs who proved that she was trained to do it because she made the turns on her own. The handler didn't make the turns. She stuck with her, which was great. But Zest made the turns on her own. And it just, for the group that saw that, I was really happy that you were able to see that that's what happened and that the training was really there.

Beyond learning the pattern that is more efficient, we talk about the lessons that are inside the lessons. And I'm asking you to do a difficult thing, getting into other people's heads. But what do you think some of the other things people learn from that exercise?

Well, my biggest hope is that they understand that the best part about scent work is being a teammate. And that by forcing them to be under control with their dog, I force them to be a teammate instead of it just being the dog running the search. And, you know, there's so much information out there about dog driven searches and this, that and the other. And that's certainly an option and a philosophy. I personally like to be really connected to my dogs so that we're a team. And I've talked in the past about, you know, in the Avatar movies where they plug into their animal, and I feel that that's what the leash is for me and my dogs. And we're very connected. I can feel the minuscule changes in behavior as we're searching. And I love it. And that's what makes it all worth my while.

Yeah. For my experience, my girl dog again built a little bit more trust and forcing her. Like she first charged off really super fast and I was committed that we're going to do this pattern. So I took her back and we went back to the beginning. And after a while she actually slowed down into a nice methodical search. And I was afraid I was going to break my dog. I was afraid that if I don't let them go to odor when they catch odor, because that's what I traditionally do. But I don't think it did.

No.

Yeah.

And to be honest, and certainly my students know this about me, and I think I'd do it in camp if there was something that went horribly wrong. I would do a recovery search for the dog. And we had a couple of people whose dogs really didn't like the control. And so there was going to be no learning there. They were fighting it the whole time. And so we just let them do it on their own, you know, and go from box to box to box and jump around. The place was nowhere near as efficient. But I'm not going to. These are young dogs and I suggested some exercises for them to do to make it better in the future, but they weren't ready to do it then. And so nobody got broken, you know. And I think the people who that occurred to, I think they were happy that I was willing to just back off a little bit and change the parameters. You know, I'm not going to make people pay to come here and not have a good experience if I can help it.

Let's wrap this up. What final thought do you have for somebody when they leave a camp or an intense training session? Look at this notebook. I think, what do I do with this? I think it's great.

I think what happens from the past when people have texted me or emailed me or called me after camp is it normally hits you about a week afterwards, and you go, oh, my God, I just learned so much. And I just need to process it and just file it away. And when those scenarios are presented again, I'll know what to do and I'll do it. And I think we haven't brainwashed you, but it'd be a good idea. But I think that's what happens. And based on my amazing team who comes every year, and they always say to me afterwards, it takes them about a week maybe to recover, and then they start bringing in these little nuances of what they learned from Jeff or me. And it's so charming and dear. And we have people who come back every year and put up with our shenanigans. I think it's just fantastic, actually.

I love that. Like, a little bit of patience and just realizing maybe your brain's going to need a second to process this. And also it's in that. Well, and who knows, two years from now, something that you completely forgot about might pop up because it's relevant. Jeff, what do I do with this notebook full of stuff? What do you think?

Put it in a drawer and just participate.

How on brand is that for Jeff?

Yeah, if I could circle back to what Penny said, because we have a long history going back to 2007, and I think we've always deeply appreciated each other's perspective and what we can bring together to others. We used to be able to do a lot of these sessions together, which is always the most fun for us. And then you get both of us at the same time synthesizing things.

But that was hard. It was like a split personality.

But underlying her being a brilliant partner for her dogs and competitor is a brilliant relationship. And those don't just fall out of trees that you bump into when you're taking your dog for a walk. And, oh, good, the relationship apple hit us on the head. I think if you asked her, she would probably unfold a lifetime's worth of experiences that led to the relationship she has with her dogs. But that lifetime of experiences, a lot of it probably wasn't just listening to other people going, oh, tell me what to do to have a relationship. It was listening to herself and trusting in herself. And how many times have you guys heard me tell you, you don't need the answer from me. What do you want to do? What do you want to do with your dog and your relationship? And camp is a place where you can come in on day one and leave on the final day, and you can feel like you've plugged into that relationship potential more. Maybe you've just scratched the surface. Maybe you feel like you've taken it to a new height, but it's the place where that happens. It can happen through fun, it can happen through crying, it can happen through challenges, happen through silliness. Right? But it's a place where it happens. And we've seen it, you know, for almost a decade and a half of this stuff, and I love it. I love to see it, love being part of it. So, you know, to me, I think you're walking away with everything you need, which is you and your dog. Right. I mean, we can be here to be your supporters and guide you and sprinkle some ideas out there, but ultimately, you've got to bake the cake, and you and your dog together have got to be in the kitchen doing that. So, yeah, I think we're getting close to dinner. I'm starting to use food analogies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's get this man fed. One final question. We're going to do Jeff first and then Penny. So can you share some of the most meaningful feedback you've received after doing a camp or a training session? Something that stuck with you or something that was personally rewarding to you even if somebody didn't say it.

Again. I don't want this to be taken in the wrong way, but I don't pay attention to feedback.

Okay, fair. How about a personal rewarding moment?

And the reason being that feedback is back there in the past, and I'm just trying to go with what's going on now. So it's going in my ears if you say it to me. And it might jumble around in there, but I'm not focused on it. I've watched people in the past, mentors, Penny, Ron Gaunt, and I can tell when someone is firm in what they're doing and they trust in what they're doing, and that's independent of the feedback. Right. So can't really answer that piece. You have a different version of that piece.

Yeah, the different version is what lights you up when you see it happen?

Oh, that's easy. Anytime we use the Gottmans, John and Julie Gottman, their idea of bids for attention and turning towards. Anytime I watch a dog communicating and they're in a scenario where it's unclear to both the dog and the person exactly how things are going to unfold. When I see the dog make a bid for attention through their communication and I see a person turn towards it, it's extremely rewarding. Very cool.

How about you, Penny?

Gosh, that's so hard. I was trying to think whilst I was hoping Jeff was going to go on a bit longer, so I had more time to think. But there's a couple of things that spring to mind. I teach a lot of scent work, so I see a lot of teams and I judge a fair amount of scent work. But when I see, especially in camp, a team understand what I'm trying to get them to do and them doing it, and then they're suddenly realizing what's happening, that's just it. And I'm honored to have two of Zest's puppies here in camp. I have one and two of our other puppies are here and everybody, because I said, you know, those puppies are just like Zest and it just makes me think, oh, wow. You know, there's really something there. And they've both of the other puppies, not mine, had real big breakthroughs in camp this week. And it was really, really amazing to see because it was so very personal.

So you like that light bulb moment?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have lots of them, so it's nice to see that other people do. Yeah.

Awesome.

What are you taking away? What's your take?

Oh, man. You know, like I said, I've got the notebook here and like we discussed, you know, it might take a couple of weeks to process. My approach to the notebook is going to be a little different. I mean, I respect your put it in the drawer, forget about it.

Left brain at the wheel.

Yeah. Left brain is.

Put the notebook down.

Don't. All right, here, hold on.

You must have something on your mind, right?

What do I take away from it? All right, so if we're just playing that game, I have. As a giraffe, I have to come back to this. Just this overall new affection I have for both of my dogs after going through this experience with them. Just an appreciation for who they are and the awesome things that they were able to accomplish and do and the things that we shared. And I can't really describe it beyond that, but if you're asking me just to pop something out, that's what I popped out.

And also, oh, thank you. But also, don't forget, you weren't going to bring Keeva. And so.

Right.

And I said, oh, why not? And he's just, well, I just want to do Murphy. I said, oh, no, you've got to bring her. And I'm so pleased you did. Yeah, she really did great.

It was like fate kind of intervened to make that happen. And definitely I have a stronger relationship with her now, too, so it's very cool. All right, well, thank you very much.

Thank you.

It was great talking to both of you. It's been great being in camp. The audience that's here, it's been great being fellow campers with you all. If something from this episode resonated with you, I would love to hear about it. And you can join the conversation on the Alert Scent Work Facebook page. That's facebook.com/AlertScentWork. And if you found some value in this episode, consider sharing it with another scent work enthusiast. A nose work nerd, whatever you want to call us, you can subscribe and find every episode at alertscentwork.com and for Murphy, Keeva, myself and the two of you, say goodbye. Thank you for listening to Alert Scent Work.

Thank you, everybody.

It was super fun. Thank you very much.

All right, well, we didn't mess that up too bad.